E59 - End It For Good: Addressing Drugs and Addiction with Christina Dent
Understanding the Root Causes of the Drug Crisis: An Interview with Christina Dent
In this episode of the Prisoner's Pardon podcast, host Michi J welcomes Christina Dent, the founder of End It For Good, to discuss the misunderstood root causes of the drug and addiction problem in the U.S. Christina shares her personal journey from a typical upbringing in Mississippi to becoming an advocate for drug policy reform. Through her experience as a foster parent and interactions with individuals affected by addiction, Christina provides insights into why current solutions have failed and offers alternative approaches. She emphasizes the importance of looking deeper into addiction as a health issue, the inefficacies of incarceration, and potential solutions like legally regulated drug markets and the CRAFT model for family support. Christina's book 'Curious' aims to shed light on these issues and inspire change. Additional resources and offers, including free book copies and educational materials, are provided for listeners.
00:00 Understanding the Root Causes of Drug Problems
00:51 Introduction to the Guest: Christina Dent
02:26 Christina's Personal Journey into Drug Policy
06:30 The Impact of Criminalizing Drug Use
16:42 Exploring Solutions: Legal Regulation and Quality Control
22:48 Support Systems for Families and Individuals
34:06 Final Thoughts and Resources
Website:
https://enditforgood.com
https://www.facebook.com/EndItForGoodMS/
Transcript
I think We have misunderstood,
, the root causes of a lot of
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:the problems we're facing.
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:And we look deep enough
at those root causes.
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:We would get some very
different solutions.
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:And I think that's why.
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:We haven't seen the solutions we want.
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:We have, overdoses at
its highest rates in U.
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:S.
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:history.
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:Illegal drug use has doubled
in the last 20 years.
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:Overdose is now the leading cause
of accidental death in the U.
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:S.
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:So we have these increasing harms
instead of things getting better.
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:I think We have
misunderstood, , the root causes
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:Hello and welcome to a
prisoner's pardon podcast.
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:This is Michi J and I am so glad to
have everyone listening today because
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:we have a great guest here today.
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:Her name is Christina Dent.
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:Christina is a speaker author.
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:She's the founder of the
organization End It For Good.
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:You have to understand we're going
to talk about what this is all
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:about, because you need to hear this.
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:She's a mother.
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:She's a wife.
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:She's out of Jackson, Mississippi.
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:That's not far from where
my people were raised.
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:So that's interesting in itself.
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:And she also, she has a BA.
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:in biblical studies out
of Mississippi as well.
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:It's.
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:so great to have her here
because Christina is talking
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:about drugs and addiction
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:.
Welcome Christina.
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:Thank you.
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:I'm really excited to be with you.
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:Oh, I am excited to, to
have you here as well.
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:Now, Christina has been everywhere.
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:You guys, I was looking at her bio.
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:She has done Ted talks and she
has been in front of criminal
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:justice, people, churches.
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:She has been across the whole gamut.
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:Now she is talking to
my audience, which is.
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:Mostly, people that's been incarcerated,
their families, , as you all know, I
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:have a brother that's incarcerated who
has been dealing with drugs as well.
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:And I needed this
solution a long time ago.
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:So I am so happy to have you here.
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:So Christina, tell us more.
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:It's something I miss about what you do.
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:Yeah.
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:So I'll give you the story
of how I got into it.
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:Then we'll talk about what we do.
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:So I grew up here in
Mississippi, uh, born and raised.
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:I've lived in Mississippi my whole life.
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:Um, and never was close to
drugs and addiction growing up.
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:I didn't have that in my family.
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:Um, my friends weren't using in
high school or anything like that.
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:And so, uh, it really didn't Come close
to me until I was in my early thirties.
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:Like you said, I have a degree in Bible.
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:It just wasn't part of my,
wasn't part of my world.
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:Um, you know, I was about as wild as
like popping popcorn and watching a movie
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:on the weekend kind of thing like that.
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:This wasn't my, it just, it
never came into my field.
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:And so, um, I kind of got to my early
thirties with this idea that is a,
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:uh, kind of the cultural idea of
people who use drugs are bad people.
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:And so I had kind of just picked that up.
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:I don't remember anybody ever
specifically saying that to me.
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:It was just kind of what I picked
up from all the things around me is
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:this is kind of a, um, you know, uh,
uh, low character or moral failing
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:of some sort, that sort of thing.
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:And so when, um, I was in my
early thirties, my husband
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:and I became foster parents.
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:And through that experience, we ended
up fostering a couple of different
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:children, but one of them was a
little boy who was born, um, to his
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:mom, who was struggling with a, um,
methamphetamine addiction at the time.
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:And she wasn't able to, Beat that
addiction during her pregnancy.
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:And so when he was born, he was
removed from her custody and put into
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:foster care and she would have the
opportunity to regain custody of him.
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:Um, and he was brought to our house
and we became his foster family.
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:So he arrives and, um, after a couple
of days, uh, I take him to go visit his
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:mom at the child welfare office for her
one hour visitation time in the little
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:visitation room and I, um, Pull into the
parking lot of that office and I pop his
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:car seat out of the car and turn around
in the parking lot and suddenly I'm
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:Watch this woman come sprinting across
the parking lot towards me, weeping.
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:And she runs over and just starts
kissing this baby and talking to him.
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:And I'm still kind of awkwardly
holding his car seat, wondering
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:what the heck is going on.
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:Um, and this is his mom, Joanne.
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:And this is the first time I've met her.
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:I feel very suspicious, uh,
uncertain of You know, it's real.
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:If she really loved him this much,
you know, I was using drugs while
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:she was pregnant and just didn't
really know how to understand that.
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:And so, you know, I did what I
think humans do when we encounter
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:something that doesn't fit with what
we already believe, we kind of try to
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:look for a reason to stop listening.
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:Like, how could I, how could
I make my life easier by like
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:disregarding this in some way?
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:I'm looking for some reason
to say this isn't real.
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:So I left him for his
hour of visitation time.
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:I came back and picked him up and, um,
he was just laying on his mom's shoulder.
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:She's just sitting there on that couch.
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:She's not playing on
her phone or anything.
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:She just is drinking in this moment
that she has with him, this one
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:hour of time before she has to
leave for inpatient drug treatment.
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:And he comes back to my house.
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:Mhm.
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:So they got there one hour, she went
to treatment, um, but then she would
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:call me from there and she would ask
me to put her on speakerphone and
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:she would sing to him over the phone.
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:It was just this incredible
experience of her vulnerability.
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:To let me see her as she really is
not to hold me at arm's length, not
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:to push me away or to be combative
because that's a hard relationship.
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:I thought, you know, some
random person has your child.
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:Um, instead she just let me see her.
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:And that was life changing for me because
I started to wrestle with, wait a second.
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:I know we're putting women like her
in prison and men all the time for the
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:exact same thing that she was doing.
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:If she had been caught in possession
of that methamphetamine, um, she
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:would have had a very different
outcome than what she was able to
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:have because she was able to go to
treatment and she wasn't caught first.
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:So I started wrestling with that
and really began this learning
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:journey that ended up happening.
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:Changing my mind completely about
how we could get the best outcomes
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:related to drugs and addiction.
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:That's everything from people like
Joanne that were struggling with an
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:addiction, as well as everything from
how do we stop the overdose crisis?
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:How do we reduce the amount
of crime that's related to
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:that underground drug market?
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:It's all wrapped up in this big
question about what are the best
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:tools to use for drugs and addiction.
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:And that's why I wrote the book.
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:Curious is to take people on that learning
journey with me and to say, I think we
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:have misunderstood, um, the root causes
of a lot of the problems we're facing.
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:And we look deep enough
at those root causes.
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:We would get some very
different solutions.
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:And I think that's why.
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:We haven't seen the solutions we want.
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:We have, um, overdoses at
its highest rates in U.
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:S.
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:history.
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:Illegal drug use has doubled
in the last 20 years.
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:Um, overdose is now the leading
cause of accidental death in the U.
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:S.
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:So we have these increasing harms
instead of things getting better.
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:And I hope that Curious, um, uh, is one
piece of shining a light on why that is
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:and how we could, uh, reverse that trend.
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:I love the name curious because it
captures a person attention and say,
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:like, um, you want to see what's in here.
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:You want to find out what the solution
is because, you know, we do have so many
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:families struggling and wondering how,
what to do and, you know, constantly
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:going to drug treatments, you know,
because the family goes along with them.
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:So.
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:In your, um, estimation, like,
what does Curious, in a nutshell,
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:how do you approach this solution?
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:What is the solution for this?
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:Yeah, so I think it's a it's a multi
pronged solution because different
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:parts of the solution impact
different parts of the problem.
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:So usually people when they're thinking
about how do I help my loved one
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:overcome an addiction, they're not
thinking about why are cartels South of
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:the border, creating lots of violence.
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:Like they seem very disconnected,
those, those problems.
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:They seem like, well, yeah, they're
both kind of like related to drugs,
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:but they're totally separate.
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:Um, but they're not totally separate.
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:And so part of what I do in Curious is
just take people through what happens
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:when you use the criminal justice
system, whether it's for consumers of
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:drugs or whether it's for drug markets.
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:So, um, When you force a drug underground,
when you ban it, um, or schedule it,
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:something that makes it where there's
no legal market for it, it doesn't go
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:away, but it does move underground.
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:And so you have, um, now the only
people that can get money from that
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:are people who are willing to break
the law in order to sell those drugs.
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:Sometimes those are people who
are just struggling with an
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:addiction themselves and trying
to make some money to pay for it.
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:Sometimes if you go far enough up the
food chain, you'll get back to, um, you
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:know, cartels or terrorist organizations
or somebody like that who is selling, um,
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:uh, drugs in order to profit from that.
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:In a much larger sense.
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:And so what we've done is we've
banned so many different drugs that
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:now the underground drug market is
worth about 500 billion every year.
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:So you think about this huge
pile of cash, 500 billion.
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:And basically what we've said
is we just hope that nobody is
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:going to go get that pile of cash.
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:Like we just don't want anybody to, to, to
sell it, you know, to, to earn the money.
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:Well, what do we know
about human behavior?
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:Humans are not good at
leaving cash unearned.
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:They, there is cash to be made.
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:If there are consumers holding out
money, you're, there will always be
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:somebody who is willing to sell those
drugs for a whole variety of reasons.
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:But it's, it's always because there's cash
involved, there's money to be made there.
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:And so that ends up incentivizing crime.
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:And when you have.
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:Lots and lots of crime and
it's an underground market.
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:You can't call the police.
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:If somebody rips you off, you've
got to go handle that on your own.
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:Um, and you can't, it's not a.
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:In a, you know, you think about
trade routes and things like that.
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:Well, that's the way you get
that is just through force.
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:You got to just defend your territory.
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:You got to, if you want to
expand the piece of your pie,
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:you got to take that by force.
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:And so it ends up creating lots of
violence, lots of crime from the market.
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:Fighting amongst, amongst itself, um, and
that ends up playing out in the streets.
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:And generally that violence is most
felt in the most vulnerable communities,
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:whether that's, uh, our vulnerable
communities in the U S or whether
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:that's vulnerable communities outside
of the U S, um, that tends to be where
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:most of that is, uh, is centered.
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:And so that was a really
challenging thing for me.
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:Cause I hadn't, I have always
thought, you know, If a drug can cause
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:harm, you just ban it, and then it
goes away, but it doesn't go away.
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:It actually creates a lot of crime,
and then it also, um, you don't have
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:any kind of regulatory control over it.
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:So, when we think about the fentanyl
crisis that we're in right now
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:with people dying from overdose.
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:About 90 percent of people who
die from an opioid overdose today
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:have fentanyl in their systems.
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:But that's happening because there's
no regulation around the drugs
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:that they're getting on the street.
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:They can have whatever in them.
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:They can have fentanyl in them.
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:They can have nidazines in them.
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:They can have xylazine in them.
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:They can have brick dust, rat poison,
all kinds of things that are used
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:as additives and cutting agents.
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:Um, and there's no quality control
like you would have in a legal market
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:where you can look at the package and
you know, the ingredients, you know,
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:the potency dose it appropriately.
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:So I'll tell you a little story
about this, because fentanyl is
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:such a huge problem right now.
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:And so many people are dying and we,
so we think of fentanyl as a lethal.
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:drug, like fentanyl kills people.
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:But when my son, my youngest son, when
he was four, it's just a couple of years
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:ago, um, he cut his finger really badly
and had to go to the emergency room.
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:So we go to the emergency room and
he's going to have to have stitches.
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:And the nurse comes in with a little
syringe and she says, Hey, I'm
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:going to give him some fentanyl.
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:It's going to help him feel better
before we do these stitches.
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:Simultaneously, you have a four
year old, tiny little four year
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:old who's going to get fentanyl.
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:And you also have these 40 year old men
who are dying from fentanyl overdose.
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:It's not the fentanyl that is
The real problem, it is the lack
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:of quality control and the lack
of dosing, appropriate dosing.
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:So in a medical setting, you
can dose fentanyl appropriately.
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:Fentanyl is used every single day
in every hospital in this country,
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:uh, over and over and over again.
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:It's a very powerful opioid,
which makes it useful for pain
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:relief in a medical setting.
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:When it's on the street and people
can't dose it appropriately, it
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:is so potent that the The risk of
overdose is just so much higher
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:because the margin of error between
getting high and dying is razor thin.
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:So you've got all of this harm
coming from these underground
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:markets that move underground and
create a lot of crime and violence.
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:You get a lot of overdose that happens
because of contamination and Um, you
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:can't dose it appropriately and then you
have what happens to consumers, which I
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:would imagine there's probably a lot of
people who listen to your podcast that
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:have been affected in some way by, um,
incarceration related to drugs, whether
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:that's a paraphernalia charge or a
possession charge or, uh, you know, intent
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:to distribute or whatever it might be.
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:Um, and so when I started looking
at that and thinking about for
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:people who are using drugs.
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:What is the likelihood that an
incarceration, that an arrest is going
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:to deter them from using drugs again?
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:I started learning about addiction and
what, what causes addiction and, and
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:more importantly, what heals addiction.
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:Because the, the whole
purpose of using the criminal
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:justice system is people need.
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:You know, they need that hard stop.
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:They need that pain in their life.
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:They need to feel it, uh, harshly, and
that will help them to kind of snap out
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:of it and quit making those decisions.
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:Um, and what I learned is that's
actually the opposite thing of what
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:people need to be able to heal because
so much addiction is driven by.
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:Pain in a person's life.
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:Mm-Hmm.
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:, emotional pain.
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:Uh, mental health issues.
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:Um, childhood trauma, loneliness,
disconnection, isolation.
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:Those are the things that create
vulnerability to addiction.
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:And so in using the criminal justice
system, we're actually adding more
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:pain and trauma into a person's life.
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:More difficulty, more disconnection,
and then were confused as
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:to why that didn't work.
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:And I think what we know now about
the drivers of addiction explains
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:why that has not worked well for us.
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:There are a few people for whom It
was the thing that changed their life.
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:And there are thousands and thousands
of people cycling in and out of
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:the criminal justice system because
it's not helping them to heal the
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:deeper reasons for their drug use.
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:It's just adding more pain and more hurt
and more difficulty into their life.
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:So are you for legalizing it or what do
you have a solution in that area or yes,
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:we would say yes, that moving towards
legally regulated markets again is going
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:to be the best path to regain control
of the market, take it away from, uh,
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:cartels and other criminal organizations
and also to regain some quality control
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:and ability to, uh, To control the
product that people are using, as well
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:as things like protecting children
through age restrictions on purchasing.
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:Um, you know, one of the interesting
things I used to think about, you
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:know, prohibiting a drug is kind of
like the ultimate form of regulation.
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:Like if it's bad, boy, we're just
going to regulate the heck out of it.
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:We're going to ban it.
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:And it's actually, when you
ban something, you lose all.
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:Control of it.
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:I mean, you can, people can
sell whatever they want.
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:So you've got whoever wants to can sell
it, whoever wants to can buy it and they
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:can sell whatever product they want to.
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:And there's no telling what they're
putting in that bag that they're selling.
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:And so, um, it's actually a
prohibition is an absence of control.
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:It's not.
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:The ultimate form of control.
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:And so, um, so I say that hesitatingly
because it still makes me uncomfortable.
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:You know, we have an organization
that's inviting people to consider this
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:because we think it is the best way
to reduce global harm as well as local
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:harm related to drugs and addiction.
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:But the idea of even adults having.
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:Um, legal access to some of these
popular recreational drugs still
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:makes me really uncomfortable.
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:Um, cause I don't want people using drugs.
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:I just, I want, except for medical
reasons or whatnot, and I recognize
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:people can use recreationally and
that's, you know, plenty of people
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:do that with alcohol legally today.
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:Um, but the risk is there.
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:There's certainly risk there
of what, what will happen.
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:And will we be able to educate people?
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:about the risks and help them
to make healthy decisions rather
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:than, than unhealthy ones.
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:Um, but when I look at what, what the
path is for us to continue down this
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:path and what the path is to actually
solve the root causes of those problems,
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:I think people, if you ask them what's
the biggest problem happening with.
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:Drugs today, most people are going
to say overdose because they're
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:hearing about it all the time.
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:They know people who have
overdosed and died now.
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:They know fentanyl is out there.
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:So how are we going to fix that?
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:You can't fix that by just putting
more police officers on the
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:street and finding more drugs.
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:As long as there's people who want drugs,
there's going to be drugs available.
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:There's no way that you can take
enough drugs off the street.
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:To stop people from using drugs.
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:It is, it is absolutely impossible.
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:It's like, um, it would be like thinking
we could like empty Walmart shelves
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:and we just steal enough merchandise.
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:Kind of like Walmart knows
how much merchandise they're
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:going to lose to shoplifting.
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:And they just send that much
more merchandise because they
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:want their shelves to be full.
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:The same is true of the drug market.
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:There is no shortage of drugs.
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:Their shipping is pretty good.
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:As much as they need for whatever the
market demand is in a particular area.
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:Um, so we can't, there are no other
good solutions to some of these.
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:problems that we're facing
to, to address fentanyl.
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:We have to allow some form of
quality controlled, um, option
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:for consumers to use so that they
stop using contaminated drugs.
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:That's going to be hard.
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:It's going to be hard to figure out.
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:What's the best way to do that?
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:Is it through prescriptions?
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:Is it at a pharmacy?
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:Um, Are there certain low dosages
that people could access without
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:a prescription but from a medical
provider in some way from a pharmacy
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:where it still can be regulated?
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:And those are hard questions, but I think
the The time has passed for us to say
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:the, the solutions are too difficult.
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:And we just want to kind of
keep going down the same path.
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:If we keep going down the same path,
we're going to keep getting not just the
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:same results, but actually worse results.
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:Because if you look at what has happened
with, um, contamination, let's say,
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:so it used to be that contamination
happened, but it wasn't a huge problem.
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:The potency of the drugs was
not strong enough where you had
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:lots and lots of people dying.
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:But now.
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:Fentanyl's on the market.
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:Nidazines are actually far
more potent than fentanyl.
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:They're coming in, they're
moving them all around the U.
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:S.
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:Um, we're on a, a march towards higher
and higher and higher potency drugs on
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:the street, and that's not going to stop.
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:Um, people are going to
continue to die because they
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:can't dose them appropriately.
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:You look at the, um, the rate of how much
money is going to criminal organizations.
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:People are still buying drugs and
that money is going to go to criminal
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:organizations as long as we do not
allow those markets to operate in
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:some sort of legally regulated way.
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:Um, so the answers are hard, but
I think if we're, if we sit long
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:enough with the root causes of the
problem, um, we might be willing to
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:begin that process of figuring out
how do we roll back this criminal
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:justice approach so that we can treat.
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:Drugs and drug use and addiction
as health issues, which I
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:think is what they really are.
388
:Mm hmm.
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:Okay, so that's what Curious is going
into is, you know, um, the legal system.
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:What about the root causes
for with the person itself?
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:How does it address this
particular issue health wise?
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:Mm hmm.
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:Yeah, so one of the things that I
would encourage for any family member
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:who has a loved one who is struggling.
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:With addiction is to go
to allies in recovery.
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:So we're not financially
connected to them in any way.
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:We just know who they are
and they do fantastic work.
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:They're a national organization,
allies in recovery.
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:Um, and they offer training, support
groups, um, practice groups, all
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:kinds of support for family members.
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:with a loved one struggling
with an addiction.
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:And they teach a model called C.
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:R.
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:A.
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:F.
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:T.
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:So it stands for Community
Reinforcement and Family Training.
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:And C.
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:R.
410
:A.
411
:F.
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:T., yeah, C.
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:R.
414
:A.
415
:F.
416
:T.
417
:was developed, uh, a couple of decades
ago, probably 25 years ago now.
418
:And it is a, it's a model that has
been studied extensively and has been
419
:shown to increase the family's health.
420
:As addiction is a incredibly stressful
event for the whole family unit.
421
:So, CRAFT increases the family's
health as well as it actually
422
:makes their loved one more likely
to seek help for their addiction.
423
:So for families that
aren't sure, what do I do?
424
:Like how do I, I don't want to
enable them, but I also don't want
425
:to just cut off this family member.
426
:Be That I love, but I, what, how do I
engage here in a way that's helpful?
427
:Craft teaches you how to do that.
428
:It teaches you how to engage with
your loved one in a way that is not
429
:enabling, but does offer them positive
reinforcement for making positive choices.
430
:And it's really transformative.
431
:I, I hope everyone knows about it.
432
:And I hope that we get
to a point one day where.
433
:There's craft support groups, just like
there are AA support groups or Al Anon
434
:support groups or anything like that.
435
:Um, because one of the challenges
of, of the groups that are available
436
:currently is they tend to say.
437
:They tend to teach you how to
separate from the situation, but
438
:not how to actually engage in
the situation in a helpful way.
439
:And so that's what CRAFT does.
440
:So for any family member, highly
recommend checking out Allies in Recovery.
441
:Um, they have so many different resources
and just do phenomenal work resourcing
442
:families who are trying to walk with
their loved one through an addiction.
443
:Um, and then for people who are
struggling with an addiction, I think,
444
:you know, Part of the research for the
book, and the book really is a memoir.
445
:So if people are thinking, I'm not
interested in like a drug policy
446
:book, this isn't a drug policy book.
447
:This is a memoir.
448
:Um, this is just my, my, my journey, my
story, what I learned and what I think
449
:could, could, um, help us in the long run.
450
:Um, but one of the things that was so
interesting to me is how many people.
451
:Who have struggled with an addiction
that went through that addiction, having
452
:no clue what was happening to them.
453
:Like, why, what is, why
am I making these choices?
454
:Why can't I stop?
455
:Why, even though I love my family,
why did I just steal money from them?
456
:Like these things that are, that are so
against their values, their internal.
457
:Um, character and yet they're
behaving in ways that are not in
458
:line with who they want to be and
who, who they are at their core.
459
:Um, and I think Curious offers
them a way of learning about that.
460
:Um, I talk about Rat Park, which was a,
uh, experiment that was done a number of
461
:years ago to, um, to help, uh, figure out,
is it the drug that is so powerful or is
462
:it something else that's actually the real
reason why people are using that drug?
463
:So I tell that whole story and experiment.
464
:It's fascinating and, um, curious,
but it helps give people answers.
465
:My mom always used to say hooks
to hang things on, like a way to
466
:understand, um, what's happening,
whether that's a loved one or
467
:whether that's a person in addiction.
468
:And I've actually had a lot of
people in recovery who have read
469
:the book and said it was a really
healing thing for them to read.
470
:I think just, um, Yeah, that, that
has really touched me that it has been
471
:helpful, even though I'm not a person who
has experienced a substance use disorder
472
:myself, um, but in talking to so many
people and telling so many other people's
473
:stories in the book, it's, it's my
story, but there's also lots of different
474
:people's stories who were included in it,
um, including parents of children who have
475
:struggled, um, parents who've lost loved
ones, Just lots of different stories.
476
:So I think it is for anyone
who is touched with this issue.
477
:Um, my experience has been, I've
been hearing from people who
478
:have said, this is so helpful.
479
:It's so hopeful, gives us a, a
way to see a different future
480
:that we can be part of where.
481
:There's a lot more healing
and a lot less harm.
482
:Mm hmm.
483
:I like that.
484
:Yeah.
485
:It's because, yeah, we do need better
approaches and not just, I'm a believer
486
:that prisons are not actually, you
know, biblically speaking, it's not,
487
:it wasn't designed to cure anything.
488
:It was.
489
:Designed for, um, punishment in a way not
to try and treat the person, but, um, but
490
:yeah, but we've lost that way, I think,
and that's and we're finding that out
491
:because a lot of people are not changing.
492
:It's not meant to change the person.
493
:Right?
494
:So it can't change the person.
495
:So with.
496
:You know, I love this training craft
and just getting into things like that.
497
:Maybe they can bring
that into the prisons.
498
:Do they have that at all?
499
:Well, that's for the family members.
500
:But what about, you know, um, what
was the other one for individuals?
501
:Is there any individual one?
502
:Well, there are different, um, so
there are prisons or jails that do
503
:have different recovery programs.
504
:Some of them run celebrate
recovery programs in there.
505
:Um, there are some jails that
are starting to offer medication
506
:for opioid use disorder.
507
:That's a really helpful tool for a lot
of people to stabilize their lives.
508
:Um, and not be using
contaminated substances.
509
:There are some jails that are
beginning to allow that in, in jails,
510
:which is a, is phenomenal because
it is, um, at this point, the most
511
:effective form of treatment that
we know of for, um, an opioid use
512
:disorder that is available at least.
513
:And so, um, yeah, there's
lots of different.
514
:options.
515
:Very few tend to be available
in jails and prisons.
516
:And, you know, to your point,
I actually was just reading,
517
:um, a study that came out.
518
:It was an analysis of like 116 other
studies on the role of incarceration
519
:on, um, recidivism, like on a person,
whether or not they're going to
520
:commit another crime in the future.
521
:And they found that incarceration has
no different impact on the rates of
522
:recidivism than like Um, probation does.
523
:So, being, to your point, incarceration
is, um, it really is only useful as a
524
:separating of someone from the community.
525
:Like, if they are so dangerous that
they, they must be held in a specific
526
:location away from the community.
527
:for joining me.
528
:It can do that, but it does not impact.
529
:It does not help people make better future
decisions any more than just being put on
530
:probation would, which is pretty shocking.
531
:I mean, that's, we've got lots of people
in prison for whom the, the reason we
532
:put them there is because we're hoping
it changes their future behavior.
533
:Um, and yeah, it's not designed for that.
534
:It can't, it's not doing that.
535
:It really can't do that.
536
:I mean, you're, you're asking people
to find healing for deep wounds.
537
:In a place where violence and abuse
and, uh, and drugs are rampant,
538
:people can get drugs easily in prison.
539
:And so it's not helping them
overcome their addiction.
540
:There certainly are a few people who
have a life changing experience there,
541
:but the vast majority, um, do not.
542
:And it makes life, um, a whole lot harder.
543
:Mm hmm.
544
:Yeah.
545
:Now, if we can just get people to
see that point and, uh, help find
546
:the solution, you know, and use.
547
:The tool of prison appropriately,
you know, just like you said,
548
:some people don't need to be there
and they need to be in treatment.
549
:Maybe it's, you know, but it's, it
just depends on the circumstances and
550
:the person, you know, it's not for
everybody, but yeah, this is very good.
551
:I like that you took the time, you did
this memoir cause I was going to ask
552
:you, you know, how did you know this?
553
:How did you know, and just
listening to people's stories.
554
:And I think it's going to resonate.
555
:With you know people that haven't
been exposed to this because
556
:how would they know you know?
557
:Yeah, you're making judgments without much
information, and that's just a tendency.
558
:We all have yeah No, we're gonna feel
it was something if we don't know so
559
:that's right So we just make it up you
know so and then we like well, that's
560
:that's That's not what I believe in.
561
:And, uh, thank you for seeing that
it was a difference in a person.
562
:Uh, the mother is an individual that
is going through some things and, and
563
:we do really need to get to the core,
like what's the fundamental problems
564
:and start addressing that, and a lot
of times I'm seeing all these government
565
:programs meant to help is always harmful.
566
:Yeah.
567
:Yeah.
568
:Always turns out to be very harmful
because, we have not the right
569
:things in place and some of the people
are not curious, not reading your
570
:book and just doing the research.
571
:They're just throwing it out there.
572
:I just got this degree in here and
there and I know what I'm doing.
573
:And it's like, you, how can you Do
that and you haven't even looked at
574
:it and don't even, you know, it's
not working cause they, they don't
575
:go back and look at the stats and
stuff like, Hey, you need to fix this.
576
:It's not working.
577
:So yeah, this is wonderful.
578
:, is there anything else?
579
:, as we wrap this up, you want to
say to the audience about curious,
580
:I know I'm going to put it in the
show notes, how to contact you.
581
:I actually joined and subscribed to get
you because, you know, just to stay.
582
:Posted on what's needed.
583
:It seems like you've got a really good
handle on, , the lawmakers and what's
584
:coming out and hopefully getting them to.
585
:, to write some better bills, um,
some laws and put it in place.
586
:And hopefully we do something, I hate
to say it about that border, how it's
587
:getting in here, but what, what would you,
what else would you say that's really,
588
:you want to say to the audience to about
curious about, uh, especially people who
589
:haven't been exposed to drugs at all.
590
:Yeah.
591
:Yeah.
592
:So I'd say, um, so I've got some
free copies for your listeners.
593
:So the first five people that email us,
we'll send a free copy of curious to you.
594
:You can email us at
curious at end it for good.
595
:com.
596
:That's like E N D.
597
:And it for good.
598
:com.
599
:So curious at, and if we're good.
600
:com shoot us an email, first five
people will send a free copy of it too.
601
:Um, you can also get it on Amazon.
602
:The audio book will be out
in just a couple of weeks.
603
:There's a Kindle version.
604
:Um, and there's also, we have
just some resources on our
605
:website that you can get to.
606
:You can go to end it for good.
607
:com slash freebies.
608
:And we have three ways you can help
someone struggling with an addiction.
609
:We also have one called, um,
five keys to having productive
610
:conversations on polarizing topics.
611
:If you've ever tried to, ever tried
to share your passion about something
612
:with someone and you just feel like
you hit the brick wall, um, we've,
613
:we've learned a lot doing, uh, lots
of events and lots of speaking and
614
:talking with lots of people about how.
615
:How can we help people be, be
curious about whatever our issue is?
616
:For us, this is this issue of drugs
and addiction, but for other people,
617
:it's other passions and that's great.
618
:So if you have a passion for something
and you're trying to figure out how to
619
:help other people be open to listening,
um, we wanted to just help people.
620
:Be able to, to share their passions
with the world in a more productive way.
621
:And so you can go to end it for good.
622
:com slash freebies.
623
:And yeah, we would love to hear from you.
624
:Um, uh, this, this type of thing, every
movement in history, it starts with.
625
:Just regular people, regular people who
make it their passion, who make it the
626
:thing that they're going to put some
time and effort into, um, into sharing
627
:it with other people, we grew into
an organization because people just
628
:invited other people, Hey, you should
come and come to one of these events.
629
:Hey, you should read this article.
630
:Hey, you should read this book.
631
:Um, it's not because.
632
:We can reach everyone, it's because
through all of the people who have
633
:connected with this movement, they
are now taking the movement and
634
:helping to reach other people with it.
635
:Um, and that is how all movements grow.
636
:And we hope this is one where we look
back in 50 years and we all just shake
637
:our heads and say, I cannot believe that
we used to think that incarceration was
638
:going to solve addiction, that it, that
it becomes just something that seems,
639
:um, unbelievable to us, that that would
have been a time in history and that we
640
:would leave that behind, just like we've
left a lot of other things behind that
641
:have needed to be changed over time.
642
:And we have realized when we, when we
learn something new, when we know better.
643
:It's time to do better.
644
:Um, and I think this is one of those
areas where we can, that's excellent.
645
:I love this approach because, you know,
what you're doing is helping with the
646
:communication because it has to start
with the communication and being able
647
:to listen, you know, be able to see.
648
:Translate, be able to receive if you
don't have a good receiver, you're
649
:not going to understand the knowledge.
650
:So this is really, really good.
651
:I really thank you, Christina audience
again, the first five people get
652
:free books and tell them prisoners.
653
:Pardon me, TJ sent you.
654
:So I really thank you for coming.
655
:Thank you for sharing your knowledge
and your experience and just being
656
:honest and open yourself about what.
657
:We don't know what you don't know.
658
:So, and we all need to do that
because we don't know everything.
659
:We need to just listen at times.
660
:So, and thank you all for listening.
661
:Well, that's it for today.
662
:Thank you for listening.
663
:And may you have a week
filled with blessings.
664
:God bless.
