E60 - From Big Frank to Frank: A Journey of Redemption

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Hello everyone.

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And welcome to a

prisoner's pardon podcast.

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I'm Michi J your host.

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And today we have a special show.

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As always, today we are

going to be talking to Frank.

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Frank is a good friend of mine.

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He is a employee of Partners in Hope.

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You heard me talk many times

about Partners in Hope.

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It's a great, great organization.

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He is the re entry recruiter there.

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Now Frank was formerly incarcerated,

but he is out and he is doing great.

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And I want you to hear from him because

he is doing some amazing things.

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Now let me introduce you to Frank.

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Hi Frank.

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Hi, how you doing miss J?

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Hey, how are you?

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It's good.

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Good.

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Good.

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It's good to have you on the show.

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I thought I would have you on

because you have an incredible story.

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I want you to talk about, you know, what.

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What it is that you do at Partners in

Hope, and what are you all about now?

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Because people need to know how

great you are and what you're

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doing there at Partners in Hope.

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Well, what I do here, I'm the re entry

recruiter here at Partners in Hope.

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And what I try to do is get men and

women who have been impacted by the

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system to change their way of thinking.

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, the way they thought before they went into

the system and the way they're thinking

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now needs to be just totally different.

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And I discovered that, throughout

my 26 years of incarceration, that

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I had to change my way of thinking

in order for me to be able to come

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out back in here to society and be

able to function or be successful.

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And when I say successful, I don't mean

in a monetary way, but I mean, just

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in a practical way of just being able

to live out here and not just exist.

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So you mentioned you had to

change your way of thinking.

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How did you do that?

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Well, , basically I had to really , just

strip myself down from what I was and

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who I was to become the person or the

man of God that God had , designed me to

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be, you know, uh, if I may use scripture

in Romans chapter 12, verse one, it

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talks about us renewing our minds.

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And I believe that's where it had

to start in the renewing of my mind.

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So to renew my mind.

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All the things that I thought about

I did as a child as a person growing

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up before I was incarcerated.

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I had to just really detach those

things from my way of thinking

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from my being totally in order for

me to be able to rebuild myself.

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, if you take the analogy of, uh, a

potter, a person that does pottery.

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When they mess up on a particular,

uh, piece that they're working

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on, they'll, they'll tear it down.

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They'll tear it down and rebuild

it to shape it and mold it

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to where they want it to be.

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And so that's what I

had to do with myself.

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I had to allow myself to be torn

down, stripped of who I was.

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and say the old name Big

Frank and become Frank.

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And in order for me to do that, I had to

just detach myself from all my ways of

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thinking, the people that I dealt with,

the things that I did, the places I went,

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the books I read, the TV shows I watched,

the music I listened to, all those things

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had to be just changed and renewed.

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Now, some things I held on to, I

will tell you that I still like jazz.

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I love my jazz music.

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, I still like some old R& B stuff, but

I'm real particular about that as well.

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, and I knew once I started that process,

it just became a continual thing

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with me where I no longer desired

to do the things that I'd done as

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a, as, , prior to my incarceration.

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Those things did not, , entertain

me anymore or excite me anymore

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because I found a new way of living

that was more profitable for me.

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Okay, that's pretty good.

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So you said you had to strength.

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I like how you went

from big Frank to Frank.

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because those sort of nicknames kind of

kind of dictate behavior a lot, right?

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That's correct.

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That's correct.

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As Big Frank, I was more of the,

uh, the mean, um, bully, uh,

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intimidator type of individual.

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I remember in high school, a young

man used to tell me in high school,

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like, you could smile sometimes.

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And my persona, Was just that it wasn't

a whole lot for me to smile about

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because I was just trying to intimidate

you growing up and say at 17 was she

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she mentioned that to me and that stuck

with me as I grew into this young lady

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to tell me that because this is what

she's seen and I wasn't like I wasn't

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that approachable person that I really

wanted to be though I had that about her.

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Thought in my mind that I

wonder why people didn't

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approach me in a certain way.

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Well, this is what I was given

up that I really didn't want

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to be approached by people just

by the persona that I gave off.

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So you said, , your name kind of signified

that, um, you wanted to be intimidating.

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So why did, do you know why you

were wanting to be intimidated?

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Uh, yeah, I could say yes

because as a, as a younger man,

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I was intimidated by people.

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And so as I grew up and, my

body stopped filling out, I

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started maturing physically.

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, and I got some size on me.

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Well, now I can be the intimidated

cause I was intimidated.

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And most, I would say most.

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Men or women who grow up and become

like that is because of what happened to

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them in their childhood, in their past.

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And now they're saying, no longer

will I be the one being intimidated.

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I'll be the intimidated.

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Because, you know, you don't

want to feel that way anymore.

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So now you want to do it, not kind.

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You don't think constantly like I

don't want nobody else to feel how I

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felt growing up, but you just do it.

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And so that became a part of who

I was and, growing up in my day.

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Uh, yeah, you wanted to be a man.

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You walk in the room and everybody

just kind of look at you and say,

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yeah, you know, you show that strength.

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So that's just who I, who I had become.

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Okay, that makes sense.

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So we kind of, we, we get

dealt that hand sometimes.

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And so we start dealing it

out to others unknowingly.

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When did you consciously

start realizing that it was

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something you were dealing with?

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unconsciously doing?

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Was it when that young lady told you that?

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She kind of gave me some awareness of it.

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So I was around 16 or 17.

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Then she gave me an awareness of it.

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But though I kept going living that way,

but it was just over a course of time.

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I noticed that people, gave

me that type of respect.

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Uh, but that's where the

name Big Frank came in.

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And so that respect came

along with my actions.

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And so I guess that's how I gained

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other things that I had accomplished.

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Because I intimidated people.

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So that's what, happened.

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Yeah, I like how you mentioned respect

because everybody wants to be respected

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and that's just how you got that respect.

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So I can see how that can be easily done.

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I'm sure many people, want

that sort of respect.

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Not necessarily in that way, everyone

deserves respect is we should

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actually be giving more respect.

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So now that you're not.

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Being big Frank, do you

get respect still as Frank?

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Sure.

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I get respect now because

of how I carry myself.

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I get that respect now because, the

person I have become over a course

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of time, people have seen me, And the

words that come forth from my mouth.

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That's how I live my life.

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Now.

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I just don't speak the words and not

walk it, but I walk the walk that I talk.

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And so the respect comes out of that,

you know, how the integrity that I have,

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, people just have come to know me now

at this age and over the last 26 years

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that I was incarcerated of how I carried

myself and how I dealt with individuals.

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It wasn't a more of a, thing of trying to

intimidate them, even though I was in the

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correctional system and you would think in

prison you had to be, uh, disintimidated.

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I'm used for lack of words.

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My swag that I had as a, as an

individual prior to my incarceration,

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the swag was still there.

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I just use it in a different way.

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Right, right.

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So when we choose the right way to

get the necessary things, we can

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still get gratification from it.

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We can still feel good about it.

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Am I understanding this right?

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Because you still, you've got the

respect that you were wanting in the

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first place, but you got it with.

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Being a man of character, being a man

of character, being a man of God.

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, and if I may allude to this, uh, again,

to Apostle Paul, prior to his conversion

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on the Masters Road with Christ, he lived

a certain way because this is how he was.

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Taught under the Sanhedrin.

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He was taught to be this

particular individual.

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He thought what he was doing was

correct, but it was not correct

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the way he was living his life.

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And so the respect he got then

was from an intimidation fact.

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You know, he was , a persecutor of

the Christians and stuff like that.

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And so that's what he got his respect for.

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But when he became, a man of God

and he was living, uh, for Christ.

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Swag is the same use, I'm say use

the same word, that swag that he had

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as the persecutor of the Christians.

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He still had it, but he was just

using it in a different way.

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'cause now he's more informed on

what he really should be doing.

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He was misinformed at one time, now

that he's been given this particular

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knowledge and he's living for Christ now.

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His way of living.

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He's still that same individual.

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He just lives a different way now.

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So when people see him, they say,

well, that's because that scripture

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said, well, that's the guy that

was persecuting the Christians.

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And they said, no, no

longer does he do that.

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This is how he lives now.

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So he gained that respect by how he

became how you start to live his life.

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And so the same way with

me, uh, understanding that.

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I lived a certain way and I carried

myself as a man, , walk upright

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with my shoulders up straight.

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I still do that.

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But now how my mission in

life is different than it

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was at that particular time.

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Okay, so you know, first he was Saul,

but then he just like you, he went

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from, he went from big Frank to Frank.

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He went, but God changed his name

and meant something else, you know?

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So he was a new person and

that's the same for you.

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But I like that you brought this

story up because Paul was persecuting

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his own people, the Christians,

because he was converted.

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So a lot of times.

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When we get into the system, we

kind of persecute our own people,

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meaning our communities, our

family and stuff like that.

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So you have a family.

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I know you have twins, right?

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You have boys.

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, I'm pretty sure, like anybody, when

we do stuff, it affects our family.

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And did that have any impact

on you , to actually change?

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It had a big impact on me.

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I have five children, three

sons and two daughters.

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Okay.

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And when I left the street and went into

the correctional system, my eldest son, he

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hit the street because now my leadership

was no longer there in his life.

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So he hit the street and he ended up doing

13 and a half years in the federal system.

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, And I believe that's because

of my absence in his life.

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He didn't have that father figure

there right in front of him.

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, my twins that you spoke on, I

only lived on the street with

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them a month of their lives.

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Uh, just by the grace of God, their

mother, , she had a, , a lot of

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influence upon their lives because

of the way she lived her life.

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My daughters, , now they're both,

, parole officers, but my absence in

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their lives was crucial because now

they don't have that father figure

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or that male figure in their lives to

show them, basically this is how a man

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should treat a woman or, cause that's

very important to women, I believe.

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And so, um, And change in my life

and me wanting to change that was

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the main thing, me wanting to change

and be who I knew I should be.

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Let me say this right quick.

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It was my aunt Sarah came to visit

me in the county jail when I first

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got incarcerated back in 96, and

she said, you need to find yourself.

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Because the man that committed

this crime, that's not you.

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And she knew me very well from a child.

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She knew me when she

said, no, that's not you.

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You need to find yourself

because that's not who you are.

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That's no, I don't know.

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That's not you.

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And so when I searched scripture

and God said, let us make man and

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our likeness and our image, and

that allowed man to have dominion.

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over the world.

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Uh, that gave me understanding that

in order for me to be who God had

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chosen me to be, I need to find

out who I really and truly was.

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And for me to ever be a father, or

a husband, or a son, or uncle, or

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grandfather, or a great grandfather, I

really need to find out Who I was, and

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as I searched and started to unpeel, to

peel these layers off of me, this, this

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mess off of me, and then, then Frank

started to blossom and bloom in the world.

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Then I started to understand, this

is who I really am right here.

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I'm not this person right here who

did the drugs or who took a life.

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I'm not this person who was out here

being an intimidator or stuff like that.

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That's not who I am.

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I am a child of God.

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I can, I can be this child of God and

still carry myself in an upright and a

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strong manner as God has chose me to be.

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I'm not a weakling or anything like

that, but I had to realize who I

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really was and who I really am in

order for me to really become a man.

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See, I was a male.

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When I went into the prison

system, I was not a man.

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I was just a male by

gender only by gender.

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And I wasn't a, I had not become a man

in the sense of who I was chosen to be.

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But, , my being responsible, a man of

integrity, uh, stuff like that, that

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was not who I was when I went into

the system at 35, I was just a male.

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That was it.

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I'm glad you made that point because.

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, a lot of people don't know what a man is.

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They just have that gender and it's

a character and have an integrity,

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taking responsibility and leadership.

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And yeah, we see this a lot

within our community and.

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When you said about, you know, you

didn't have that leadership, your son,

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it's like, it is whether we like it

or not, we are leading them wherever

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we are going, wherever we are at.

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And, it's something we have to

pay attention to that kids do.

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They are watching us.

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Not necessarily what we say, but

what we do and they will follow you.

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, yes, yes, , That's

something to keep in mind.

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I really applaud you for what you've been

doing because you're in the community.

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You are a reentry recruiter.

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And how does you know what you've

been through, how does that help you

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do your job as a reentry recruiter.

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I believe it helps me because I'm,

I can relate to where they've been.

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And trying to get them to

a whole different mindset.

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I relate and I can prior to going

to prison, I used to work with men,

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uh, with young men from eight to 20

as a basketball coach in the summer.

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Right.

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And I know in order to relate to them, I

had to kind of like get down in the dirt

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with them pretty much, you know, and, uh,

Paul, you know, Paul made that statement.

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He said he becomes all things to all

men so that he may win them to Christ.

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So I got to get to their level.

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And so because I did , , this largest

over a quarter century of time in the

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system, I know where they're coming from

and being out for a couple of years now.

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I know the hurdles that, that

they're going to have to face because

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I still first face some hurdles

myself now, but now I take, I look

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at the hurdle and I said, I figure

out how do I get over this hurdle?

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Not that it's just going to be, , some

of this going to stop me because I

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ain't thinking what is stopping me

is me if I allow that to happen.

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And so when I deal with these men

and women that are coming out of the

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system, I want to relate to them.

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I want to hear, I want to

know what they're all about.

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I want to know where they want to go.

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I don't care where you've been.

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I don't care what you've

done in your past.

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I want to know what do you want to to

do, where are you trying to go, and how

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can I help you get there, and if I could.

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Uh, pour something into you.

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If I can give you something, give

something back to you that was given to

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me, that's going to help their lives,

help them to move forward in life.

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That's my goal is to, and it

really, my goal is to make them

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feel human, is to humanize.

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These men and women because,

you know, going into the system,

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you're stripped of who you are.

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You're stripped of just your name.

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You don't because you no longer

name you're now a number.

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: 00:18:27

And so I want them to feel him.

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: 00:18:28

I want them to feel love.

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: 00:18:30

But I want to understand that.

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: 00:18:31

Hey, this is not a game out here that

that that you're going to be living in.

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: 00:18:36

This is for real.

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: 00:18:37

This is a real game.

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: 00:18:38

It's not a play game.

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: 00:18:39

This is a real game.

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: 00:18:40

And if I can get them to understand that

if you learn the rules of engagement

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: 00:18:46

out here in society, you'll learn

how to be more successful at staying

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: 00:18:52

out here, then going back because

it's easy to go back into the system.

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: 00:18:55

It's real easy.

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: 00:18:57

They wait for you to come back.

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: 00:18:58

But if you can learn the rules of

engagement out here, learn how to live

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: 00:19:03

and live a life and you can be productive.

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: 00:19:06

You don't have to go back

to the streets to do it.

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: 00:19:09

You can get a job.

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: 00:19:10

You can get a career.

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: 00:19:11

You can be somebody.

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: 00:19:13

Okay, just take myself.

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: 00:19:15

I never thought I, I never knew

that I would be in the position

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: 00:19:18

that I'm in now job wise.

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: 00:19:21

I did not know that 28 years ago,

but here I am, I'm in this position.

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: 00:19:26

Why?

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: 00:19:27

Because of the changes that

have been made in my life.

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: 00:19:30

And I just want to give

back to the community.

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: 00:19:33

So as a re entry recruiter, that's

my, that's my goal is to give back.

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: 00:19:38

And to help people that's coming

out the system be able to reenter

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: 00:19:42

back into society with a smooth

transition because it ain't gonna

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: 00:19:46

be easy, but it can be smooth.

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: 00:19:49

It's not easy.

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: 00:19:49

Nothing's easy out here,

but it can be smooth.

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: 00:19:53

And that's my goal is just

to make it smooth for them.

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: 00:19:55

And that's like I said, I relate.

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: 00:19:58

To what they've been and what

they're going to be going through.

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: 00:20:01

I like that.

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: 00:20:02

, I think we need more people that touch

people that are reentering that those

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: 00:20:10

people be someone that have been there.

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: 00:20:14

So because they are more.

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: 00:20:17

Relatable and I believe in a chain,

like, not, you know, where a links,

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: 00:20:23

I should say, where 1 person does

this part of you touching right away.

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: 00:20:28

You are at the right.

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: 00:20:29

I think position and, , God

really has you there for that.

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: 00:20:34

And then we, you link

up with other people.

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: 00:20:38

That kind of pull them out even more

like you've got the first hand, you

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: 00:20:41

know, and then as you're pulling,

we have the next hand, , someone

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: 00:20:46

that's probably been out further,

, been, linking to something else.

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: 00:20:51

So, cause it, it takes, I do believe

in the old tradition, the adage of

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: 00:20:55

it takes a village to raise a child

is, not that to say the person is

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: 00:21:00

a child, Everybody needs someone.

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: 00:21:02

Anybody in any position only got

there because of someone else.

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: 00:21:07

They didn't their own.

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: 00:21:08

Um, so with them knowing that, and they.

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: 00:21:12

They have to be around the right people.

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: 00:21:15

Like you said, they

have to want to change.

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: 00:21:18

So you obviously wanted to change

, and you said, humanize them.

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: 00:21:24

And because so many come out

institutionalized, meaning that they

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: 00:21:31

did not make any decisions themselves.

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: 00:21:35

They mostly everything they were

told to do this, told to do that.

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: 00:21:38

So when they come out, they're not able.

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: 00:21:41

Am I understanding this right?

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: 00:21:43

You were you that way you weren't

able to start disciplining yourself to

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: 00:21:48

say, Oh, this is, , I need to do this.

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: 00:21:50

Let me go do this.

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: 00:21:51

, did it take a while or did

you just come out doing that?

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: 00:21:54

Knowing what , you need knowing

that you need to discipline

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: 00:21:57

yourself rather than having somebody

telling you exactly what to do.

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: 00:22:01

No, , I had started disciplining

myself, the first year I was

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: 00:22:05

incarcerated, I started doing certain

things that I knew I needed to do.

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: 00:22:10

I stopped doing certain things like

I wasn't a person that sit out and,

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: 00:22:14

um, I didn't do a lot of board games,

playing cards or stuff like that.

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: 00:22:20

No, that I had to occupy myself

with other things, reading

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: 00:22:23

or studying stuff like that.

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: 00:22:25

Right.

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: 00:22:26

Um, I knew like I wasn't going to stay, I

wasn't going to be standing up late night.

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: 00:22:31

Because that's when I got in my,

that my trouble happened late night.

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: 00:22:35

So I needed to get that out of my

system that I wouldn't just be up,,

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: 00:22:38

in the correctional system, like on

the weekends, Fridays and Saturdays,

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: 00:22:41

you can stay up to like midnight.

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: 00:22:43

No, I wasn't up to midnight.

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: 00:22:44

I'm back.

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: 00:22:45

My routine was I'm going to

lay down like nine, 10 o'clock.

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: 00:22:49

I don't need to be out here.

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: 00:22:51

Uh, for lack of words, kicking it.

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: 00:22:53

I did down the street.

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: 00:22:54

That's what got me in trouble.

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: 00:22:56

So I disciplined myself

not to do those things.

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: 00:23:01

I disciplined myself not to

given the officers a headache,

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: 00:23:05

that's not what I'm there for.

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: 00:23:06

I'm there to get myself together.

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: 00:23:09

And so once I realized that as I,

as I was going through the system,

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: 00:23:14

things actually became easier for

me because it was easy for me.

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: 00:23:17

A man told me once, he was a guy

that was dealing with the salvation.

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: 00:23:21

I mean, he used to come to visit me names.

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: 00:23:24

His first name is Tom.

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: 00:23:25

And he, uh, depicted me as that fish

that swims upstream against the curry.

400

: 00:23:32

And he said, Frank, anybody

can swim with the curry.

401

: 00:23:35

Anybody can do everything

that everybody else is doing.

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: 00:23:38

He said, but I see you as an individual

that you go against the grain

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: 00:23:41

from what everybody else is doing.

404

: 00:23:43

And that stuck with me

to say, okay, Frank.

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: 00:23:45

He sees something good in you

because you're not doing, you're

406

: 00:23:49

not part of the status quo.

407

: 00:23:51

And I never really want, even

growing up, I never wanted to do

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: 00:23:54

everything everybody else did.

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: 00:23:56

I wanted to be me.

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: 00:23:58

But once I, so once I discovered who

I, who I was and who I am, it became

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: 00:24:04

much easier for me to go against the

grain of what the status quo was.

412

: 00:24:08

And so I believe out here in society.

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: 00:24:10

I had to continue to go against

the grain or what everybody else

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: 00:24:14

will want to do the easy thing.

415

: 00:24:16

Let me let it be hard,

but for me, it's not hard

416

: 00:24:19

that's a good point.

417

: 00:24:20

I like that you said it's, those

small things that you did right

418

: 00:24:25

off, like, you change your routine,

what you would normally do for us.

419

: 00:24:32

Stand up later because you knew bells

were the times that you got into trouble.

420

: 00:24:36

So you knew not to be

out during those times.

421

: 00:24:40

I'm glad you pointed that out.

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: 00:24:42

Is that what you're trying to say?

423

: 00:24:43

People need to do.

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: 00:24:45

Yes.

425

: 00:24:45

Yes.

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: 00:24:45

You have to change your habits.

427

: 00:24:48

If your habits change, you will change.

428

: 00:24:51

, that's a given.

429

: 00:24:52

That's a given.

430

: 00:24:53

I like that you said that because so many

people they think about it when everything

431

: 00:24:59

like this whole big, big, big steps

when actually it's these little things.

432

: 00:25:04

You need to do probably just

one get used to that and then

433

: 00:25:08

you go to the next little habit.

434

: 00:25:10

You need to change just what they

are Hebrews chapter 12 verse 1 says

435

: 00:25:18

that we should lay aside all those

things that so easily beset us.

436

: 00:25:23

Those are the small things that

you were just talking about.

437

: 00:25:25

Those easy things that will

set us, that will hold us back.

438

: 00:25:28

We got to lay those things aside.

439

: 00:25:31

When we do that, I can guarantee

you that in the process of change,

440

: 00:25:36

your change comes along a lot

easier and it sticks to you.

441

: 00:25:41

It sticks to you.

442

: 00:25:42

It becomes permanent.

443

: 00:25:43

In you, because again, the, the

large thing everybody can see is

444

: 00:25:48

those little small hidden things

that we do that nobody really see.

445

: 00:25:52

Those are the things that

we have to get rid of.

446

: 00:25:55

Thank you for pointing that out.

447

: 00:25:57

Now, as we wrap this up, what

is 1 of the main things you

448

: 00:26:01

want the listeners to know?

449

: 00:26:05

To do being that you've come from out

of prison and served a number of years

450

: 00:26:11

and now you're a reentry coordinator.

451

: 00:26:15

One of the things I want to

say is this is something that

452

: 00:26:17

someone gave to me that giving up.

453

: 00:26:19

It's not an option.

454

: 00:26:22

It's not an option.

455

: 00:26:23

I cannot give up what I'm trying

to do in my life because that's

456

: 00:26:27

only going to set me back.

457

: 00:26:29

And I believe that if the audience

would just take the time to learn

458

: 00:26:33

themselves and not what somebody has

placed upon them, they will become

459

: 00:26:39

that person that they need to become.

460

: 00:26:42

Learn yourself.

461

: 00:26:44

It's okay to say no.

462

: 00:26:46

It's okay to detach yourself from family

or friends that may pull you down.

463

: 00:26:52

It's okay.

464

: 00:26:54

Sometimes it's okay to be

alone in this, in this world.

465

: 00:26:57

It's okay.

466

: 00:26:58

Because when you're alone, you learn

more about yourself and just live life.

467

: 00:27:03

Don't exist.

468

: 00:27:04

live life.

469

: 00:27:06

And when you live, you begin to live

life to find out that it's good.

470

: 00:27:10

It's good.

471

: 00:27:11

It's pleasurable.

472

: 00:27:13

And this is what God had intended for

us to do to live and not just exist.

473

: 00:27:17

So I go back to what I said,

giving up is not an option.

474

: 00:27:22

I like that.

475

: 00:27:23

Well, thank you so much, Frank.

476

: 00:27:25

I really enjoyed having you on the

show can we give out your information

477

: 00:27:29

for people to contact you for

family members who may be having.

478

: 00:27:33

out pretty soon because you

aren't a reentry coordinator.

479

: 00:27:39

Please, please give my information.

480

: 00:27:40

It would be the contact

information would be F.

481

: 00:27:44

Penninger P.

482

: 00:27:44

E.

483

: 00:27:45

N.

484

: 00:27:45

I.

485

: 00:27:45

G.

486

: 00:27:46

A.

487

: 00:27:46

R.

488

: 00:27:47

at the community warehouse dot org.

489

: 00:27:52

And I'll give him my phone

number if that's okay.

490

: 00:27:54

Sure.?

491

: 00:27:56

4 1 4 5 3 1 4 5 0 1.

492

: 00:28:01

. Well, that's all today, folks.

493

: 00:28:03

Thank you for listening.

494

: 00:28:04

Remember if you have loved ones

who are incarcerated, who are

495

: 00:28:08

about to get out, please contact

Frank here in the Milwaukee area.

496

: 00:28:13

If you're not in the Milwaukee area,

you can possibly still contact him

497

: 00:28:16

and he can, give you some pointers.

498

: 00:28:19

Thank you so much, Frank,

for coming on the show.

499

: 00:28:22

I really enjoyed you

500

: 00:28:23

Thank you, miss J?, for having me.

501

: 00:28:25

You're welcome.

502

: 00:28:26

Thank you for listening and have

a week filled with blessings.